RE: [piecepack] Alien City an abstract strategy game?

[Michael Schoessow <mschoessow@...>]

I had forgotten about the effects of one player having more red and the
other player more green. I concede the point.  :-) And, no, I don't have a
problem at all with the game not being a strictly abstract game; I agree
that the random set-up is a plus.
 
As far as the definition of abstract games in a purely game theory sense
goes,  even standard chess doesn't qualify. A purely abstract game in that
sense is a 2-player combinatorial game in which there is no hidden
information, no luck, and in which a player loses the game by not being able
to make a move. This might also answer electronicwaffle's question in part.
 
-Mike
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: Ron Hale-Evans [mailto:rwhe@...]
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:34 PM
To: piecepack@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [piecepack] Alien City an abstract strategy game?



On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 01:08:08PM -0800, Michael Schoessow wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 07:32:31AM -0800, Michael Schoessow wrote:
> > Ron H-E wrote:  
> > > Your own Alien City is
> > > practically a pure abstract strategy game with just a thin theme,
> > > IMHO.    
> >  
> > You're right, Alien City is technically a purely abstract game; there is
> no
> > luck and no hidden information.
> 
>  > That's not quite true; the board setup at the beginning of the game is
>  > totally random, so there is quite a bit of luck there.  Apart from the
>  > random setup (which helps keep the game fresh, like Fischer Random
>  > Chess, IMHO), AC is a pure abstract strategy game, however.
>  
> The tile setup is random but this is completed and in plane view to both
> players before the game starts, so it doesn't constitute luck in the sense
> that one player might get lucky compared to the other. To look at it
another
> way, I could say that I've invented a very large number of abstract games
> similar to Alien City, all of which are identical except that they each
have
> a different specified starting tile arrangement.

You could look at it that way, but it's a purely semantic argument.  I
don't think a combinatorial game theorist would call AC a pure
abstract strategy game, any more than they would call Fischer Random
Chess, the chess variant invented by Bobby Fischer with a random piece
setup, a pure abstract strategy game.  Since one player has more red
pyramids and the other more blue pyramids in AC, and some board
configurations favour red more than blue or vice versa, the luck of
setup enters into the actual gameplay.

Don't get me wrong.  I _love_ Alien City!  (Obviously, since Marty and
I designated it the standout winner of the second contest.)  I think
the random setup is a PLUS, not a minus.  I just bought the first book
on Fischer Random Chess, for that matter.  Random setup keeps a game
fresh and prevents a game from degenerating into memorisation of
volume after volume of strong standard openings, etc., which is why
Bobby Fischer invented his chess variant.

Is saying that Alien City and Fischer Random Chess are not "pure
abstract strategy games" a problem?  Only if you're a mathematical
snob.  The random setup of these games does not prevent a game
theoretical analysis from a statistical standpoint, and surely the
game trees of all possible boards in both AC and FRC could be
completely known if we had powerful enough computers.

Ron

-- 
       Ron Hale-Evans ... rwhe@... & rwhe@...
      Center for Ludic Synergy, Seattle Cosmic Game Night,
Kennexions Glass Bead Game & Positive Revolution FAQ: http://www.ludism.org/
<http://www.ludism.org/> 
Home page & Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List:
http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/ <http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/> 
Seattle-area computer training & more: http://www.powerkeyconsulting.com/
<http://www.powerkeyconsulting.com/> 


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